tv Washington This Week CSPAN January 5, 2013 10:00am-2:00pm EST
we will also have a senior correspondent from the national journal. we will talk about the policy agenda. we will have all of those topics, take a look at the papers and take your calls and tweets. see you then. >> humana president bruce broussard talks about health care and insurance followed by a discussion about modern-day slavery and human trafficking. professors look at defining modern slavery. humana president bruce broussard talked about the affordable care at and what he called $750
billion a year in wasted spending on health care. he man is the second-biggest provider of the medicare health plan. from the city club of cleveland this is about one hour. >> good afternoon. welcome to the city club of cleveland. i and the president of the board of directors. i am delighted to introduce bruce broussard, the president and ceo of humana, at a fortune 100 insurance provider and administrators serving over 11 million customers. over the past four years, the issue of health care has been at the center of our nation's great
policy debates with implications beyond the health-care industry impacting our larger fiscal policy and important social concerns. we are fortunate to have mr. bruce broussard to discuss this policy. prior to joining humana in 2011 he was an executive with a corporation and the u.s. oncology. large producers and providers of health-care products. with that background, he brings to our podium a broad perspective on the health care issues facing our country. he told his undergraduate degree from texas a&m and day mba from the university of houston. looking forward to your discussion on this topic. >> thank you. thank you. thank you appear.
i appreciate the opportunity. our nation is wrestling with one of the largest issues in a long time, our debt. and the large amount of debt the united states is facing. i will outline the challenge we face and some transforming healthcare ways we can solve the issue. i will demonstrate how new approaches other integrating a delivery system and how it is already achieving outside the federal government. i will describe how health care can harness some plausibility to have sustainability even as it undergoes some transformation. i want to talk about ohio. they are addressing some of these large issues here
recently. the recently announced demonstration of instigating care coverage for the dual eligible. the dough eligible are individuals who can be covered by medicare and medicaid. it represents 20% of the medicare population but 31% of the cost. we are excited to be part of this program with a company in de 10 called care source. we will be serving minutes this our partnership prepares our ability and also the managing complicating conditions and their experience of being the leader to search to underprivileged people and health care for the last 23 years.
it is this type of partnership designed to integrate care, simplify the experience for the elderly and disabled individuals. we have a strong commitment to ohio as it is one of the sixth largest state of the medicare population. our commitment is to improve the health and lifelong well-being of our members through a comprehensive program of preventive care, coordination, and care of chronic conditions. another way we are demonstrating our health care is to help them lead a more active life. we know the rate of health care
is not a healthy lifestyle most americans. we are battling this issue on great many friends. the most exciting are here in cleveland. eight weeks ago we join forces with the metropolitan housing authority to build a multi generational playgrounds just a few minutes east of here. 150 volunteers from humana and the committee teamed up a place to build a place where children and seniors can play. i am equally proud to tell you we are one of the client sponsors of the games that will
actually take place here in cleveland. games are inspirational. it is a perfect example of health and well-being among seniors. i encourage each one of you to get involved in the games and at least make the claims to visit as a spectator. the work we do has a cloud hanging over us. that cloud is our national debt crisis. the u.s. in national debt stands at more than $11 trillion and could double in 1 decades. if you add the money that the from trustowed funds, our debt exceeds $16 trillion.
let me place that in context. increasing by the minute by $2 million. humana strongly believes that if we did not address the issues our economy will suffer. we must come together to fix it with a need a comprehensive bipartisan plans that address is revenue including pro-growth tax reform, spending, and entitlements. he man is involved in "campaign to fix the debt." we believe the campaign will make a difference in pushing congress responds relate to enact a comprehensive deal.
i encourage each one of you to get involved and fix the debts -- @ fixthedebt.org. health-care plays a significant role in our nation spending. controlling health-care costs is linked directly to our fiscal security. we are dispensed 16% of our gdp in in u.s. in health care. we have a lower life expectancy, higher in thin mortality. we're much more obese. we over use of medical services. the u.s. has 26.6 mri's for every 1 million population pure that compares to 6.8 units for developing countries.
prevalence is increasing. 75% of our health care dollars today is spent on chronic conditions which many are preventable. the cost of care varies hugely from hospital to hospital and doctor to doctor. waste and fraud cost the nation $750 billion a year. we wonder about the impact of the 2010 affordable health care act. also known as health care reform. many major provisions are scheduled to take effect in 2014, a little more than a year from now. it demonstrates projects designed to improve the delivery system. it also opens access to
individuals. it does little to address the major problem in health care. that is costs are rising. they are too high. in reality they are unsustainably rising too fast. something must be done. we must address the sustainability across the entire system. private-sector is playing a key role in leading in changing our reform. i want to talk about the way to simplify health care as a means of putting it to a sustainable level. if you look at health care from the point of view of the average person, the system is unbelievably complex and fragmented. decisions often involve many choices and overwhelming
information. health care bills and statements are keen in their complexity. even finding the right facility may be fraught with guesswork and uncertainty. we must applaud our approach to the health care. -- we must simplify our approach to the health care. a simple comprehensive actionable read you of the system is the key. we are one of the only ones that have this review. we provide oversight to the customer at their actuarial -- through actuarial science. our goal is to create a model driven by primary care providers
that uses a shared data at the point of care to improve outcomes, lower-cost, and creating a better health-care experience. our motto integrates our delivery. in many ways our model is an evolution with its roots prevalent 20 or 30 years ago. today simplicity is the key. we believe in the model that emphasizes primary care. the concept relies on primary care physicians to coordinate care for patients, helping them
navigate the health-care system so that they can receive the right care at the right place at the right time. like many organizations, technology plays such an important role in enabling this happened. we support physicians and patients with accelerated information. our system uses sophisticated models to identify individuals where these events occur. in a month it identifies more than 400,000 members. it produces over 800,000 messages. this stands at 34%.
leading to higher quality and lower costs. it enables practice management, including health records. this allows to share patient information. we also support health care members with an array and service programs designed to maintain health and address chronic conditions. we leave members their help -- through a health assessment. we have a portal that rewards the member for following a customized exercise and life style plan. we are borrowing from other
industries to create an experience like the frequent- flier program. the more they engage in healthy behavior is the more they will be rewarded from get cards to merchandise. a peer review study shows it works. it reduces hospital costs by more than 7%. and 15% for participants with cancer. four members of that need ongoing care, our program for senior members with chronic conditions is another good example. it identifies individuals before it occurs. it unites acute and chronic management before the early identification of absent care.
it develops health-care goals in supports. it is designed to help seniors. when people connect with humana care is a good things happen. emergency room visits have decrease by 13 zoom in readmission rates have reduced by 21%. well-being for us is centered on line time worked in fiscal help. it embraces financial personal security. producing lower costs, better
outcomes, and better member experiences. our most extensive experience with this model comes from our medicare advantage population. unlike original medicare which rights checks, it shows an integrated care. the empirical evidence shows that the medicare advantage plans to deliver higher quality of care at a lower cost. and higher percentage receives better coverage.
they say $31 million a year in the first year. results like this only happens because of close coordination, cooperation, in collaboration between the various participants there is a strong provider component and a commitment to sustainable delivery. doctors and hospitals must commit to practicing evidence space medicine. they need to wire themselves into a comprehensive electronic network that includes other providers and payers like us. news coverage focuses on health care reform, the private sector
is accelerating the adoption of a delivery system and already makes a difference. out of control health-care costs are the problem. the solution is care that combines data, technology, and simple customer friendly and all the programs. results would be better quality, better outcomes, lower- cost and better health care experiences. thank you. i will open it up for questions. >> we are honored today to welcome bruce broussard. we'll return to our speaker momentarily for traditional questions. please formulate your questions now and remember to be brief and
to the point. we welcome all of you here and those listening to 90.3. wtam or one of the many ready is stations across the country. a television broadcast partner is on the idea stream. television broadcasts are made possible by cleveland state university. our web cast is supported by the university akron. closed captioned as a possible. next friday the city club welcomes aaron david miller, vice president of new initiatives and distinguished scholar of the woodrow wilson opportunity. visit our web site for
information about our upcoming forums or to listen to a pot cast -- podcast of our past programs. thank you for your support. we will like to welcome today's program students toward joining us from area high schools. student participation is made possible by generous gift of the charitable trust. we welcome students from the high school. -- tand and be recognized will you stand in the recognize? [applause] you like to turn to our speaker. -- now we would like to turn to our speaker. we have our first question. >> you talked about the
complexities facing the average american patient and certainly our complex exchange will not make it more complex. i noticed that humana played a part in the drafting of the affordable care act. my question is why did not humana tried to copy the system which is very simple in canada and other parts of europe on having a single pair take care of all medical expenses? >> good question. we could be here quite some time to answer it. the system that works in canada is still expensive.
it is not have the care level that is here in the united states from the standpoint of technology. even in the european countries they have a one payer system. what has happened is that the one pear system has caused a lot of lines, health care is delayed to getting to people. as a result there is a private sector performed here. we are a big believer in integration of care in sioux a simpler model -- into a simpler model where its is under one roof or in a society that can access care at a single point and be able to use these across the platform as a whole. with not a big believer the government will sponsor a only plan. it is not encourage innovation
or competitive aspects. we think it only make us better going forward. >> being a texas a&m guy, what you make of johnny and kenny? [laughter] >> the school is making me proud. the years i've been associated with texas a&m i've never seen a better football team. i think he will win. that is off topic. >> i want to give you some background for. i am a humana medicare advantage subscriber for my wife's retirement. satisfiedlly very with the program and particularly enjoyed the silver sneakers partnership. i was pleased to mention the senior games here.
my questions are multiple. medicare advantage plants have a fair amount of criticism during the discussion of the affordable care act as being more expensive and not performing at the level they should have. corbat be main -- he maintained years are doing well. i would like to know the broad spectrum rather than just what humana is doing. the other piece that goes with this goes from the saving of money to help fund the affordable care act. how is this going to affect things? the third part of a question is is there a significant broadbased data to show that
change in lifestyle has changed the cost curve downward? not just years. i am looking at what is the total population. >> my memory is a little bad. i can do one are two questions but when you get to three is more complex. you are exactly right. the one complaint with medicare and vantage early on was that it was costing the federal government more than traditional medicare. it was not a round the effectiveness of the plan. it was really around the rates they were paying. they were paying above the medicare reads. they are getting around stimulating that. it relates to your second
question. now they are beginning to move these rates. to fundnow using that other resources. in some of the regions, now they're actually below medicare rates. we now offer services. this motivates us as an organization to be more innovative in insuring people are healthier and being treated better. we get paid a fixed payments. the duty is that we have a seven are tinea relationship. we want you to be healthy. we want you to be in the right
areas. if you're healthy we do better. all of our interests are lines in that regard. as our rates come down to become more innovative. this is the future of health care. the components around quality in managing care and being able to help individuals navigate the system continue to continue at the right time. >> the last question was around healthy behavior. being healthy is not only the right of view from abridging the right thing to do from a health point of view it is not only
help the from the standpoint of prolonging some kind of chronic condition. usually 2-3 -- usually have two or three chronic condition. one leads to another which leads to another. living a healthy lifestyle helps prevent that from happening. it helps you will be more engaged. you see our dream of lifelong well-being is not only the healthl help but the -- but the mental.
diabetes is a great experience. one of the most six offensive ones we face today. some of this is hereditary. a lot is what we do to our body. >> he spoke about the unneeded use of medical services and irrational spending. do you believe that is due to a fall in the health-care system? >> there is a flop. there are two aspects that really has gotten us to where we are. one is the fragmented nature. their only caring about their own. the second aspect is we pay for what we do. an individual that owns and
imaging device. the outcome is a healthy person. what needs to happen is moving payments to not what you'd do but if it is the effect of what you have. when i talk about medicare we are not motivated to do more mri's we are trying to get him to help more effectively. we are trying to piece will individual services as opposed to paying for the outcome -- piecemeal individual services as opposed to paying for the outcome alone. >> how about a silo of the young people?
with the affordable care acted do you think there is an understanding among that generation of all the implications for them, including costs? >> no, i really do not. the affordable pair -- affordable care act will raise the cost of insurance for younger people. there is an aspect that they have to take everybody. there is an aspect that you can only charge the difference between the lowest charge you have for individual and the highest. help the people, their costs are going to go up. in addition what you have is a
lot of fun help the people that were uninsured coming back into the marketplace. this will cause the rate to go up in that regard. the healthier, a younger people will pay more. >> one of the most compelling point of your discussion with your reliance on primary care physicians. unfortunately, at the stats that i read say that we do not have enough now and there are even fewer in the pipeline. what is humana going to do about then? -- that? >> we will love for the federal government and industry to help stimulate more individuals to come into the primary care profession. that is one.
we have activities in that context. similar to other industries, how do we get them more productive deck? how do we help them in their day-to-day activities? there are ways we a working. first is technology. i talked about our ability to proactively use that it's like to define events before they occur. that helps to stop reactive medicine. i also talked about our humana cares were we have 5000 people that go to the home for private conditions and it takes the pressure off the primary care. the third area is continuing to advance the physician assistants area and being able to leverage and nurses and allow nurses to continue to grow in their
profession to be able to be in allied to the physicians. now the positions can delegate to the nurses. technology, encouraging people to go into the profession, a change in the way we deliver health care as a whole. we are aware and we will have a primary care shortage unless we do something in those areas. >> thank you. i have a question on the part d a medicare, and the drugs. it is my understanding that the government is not allowed to negotiate drug prices. is that correct? >> it is correct. >> say that i have two drugs that i take. one is on humana drugs but not the other. the other is on income --
anthem. i have two drugs and only one is allowable by one health care provider. could you address bet? -- that? >> relative negotiating, it is the negotiation of the federal government to the pharmaceutical companies. there's actually a restriction that the federal government cannot use the purchasing power to negotiate a bulk purchase to the pharmaceutical companies. it is really to the pharmaceutical aspects of that. your next question i will come back. what has happened, and president clinton referred to this in a speech at the democratic convention, is bringing the cost of pharmaceuticals down. it is similar to what i was talking about relative to
capitalistic competition. we did a joint venturea few yers ago with wal-mart. we introduce a $15 a month drug plan. $15 a month. the industry thought we were crazy. we worked with wal-mart's purchasing power and distribution capability and our ability to bring solutions to our members. we brought a product out. what that has done is bring down the cost of part d. what this is doing is bringing competition to the marketplace. maybe you cannot take the plans at the time of purchase and use those individually. the thing about medicare advantage is you can walk the
next year. your ability to walk from one plant to another plant motivate me to deliver an experience the best i can at a price that is most cost-effective. that motivates our leaders and organizations to be innovative and be able to bring joint ventures out. we just brought out a plan on healthy foods. if you go into walmart and you are a humana member and you get your help the new card you get a discount -- healthy food card you get a discount. if we want to take care of your health as opposed to the procedures, we want to find a way to get you back to a vic lifestyle that will allow you to
be productive. >> i like your idea of personal responsibility. he mentioned about fixing the budget. i would like you to expand on the idea of what individuals can do to be personally responsible to fix the debt. >> there is a short-term aspect in a long term as fed. we're going to have to fix its because we postpone this so long. a simple in time this is going to fall down on us and have
worse conjures this region at some time this is going to fall down on us and have war's consequences. we have to get control over the entitlement program. that is not mean we take entitlement away. we make it more productive. our goal is to take that responsibility on buyout lowering the cost of health care through innovative ways. it is to take it on and bring programs like help the food out or we're able to offer $15 solutions, be able to offer care.tariaa there are $750 billion of waste a year. can you imagine was $750 billion
if we were able to put that back into the system would do for our budget? those are the things that we're looking for the federal government to incentivize people to take this. the a looket's get at our entitlement program. >> the affordable care act has some features in it which are designed to address those same things. can you talk about how those work and have a bit with some of the things that he man is doing? -- humana is doing? >> there are some programs about the demonstration aspects. this identifies the problem of
fragmentation. how do we take that on in a very fragmented industry? integrated care is what their focus on pure it they take responsibility for someone to help -- their focus on. they take responsible for some what health care. when you look at the capabilities of trying to manage across the system and being able to help individuals navigate that journey of a fragmented industry it is medicare advantage. we are big believers in that aspect appea. we believe the industry would get behind it it would benefit the cost of health care.
there is a lot of coordination that needs to be required. this is where you start to see the political issues that take place with hospital system to hospital system. we are big components in the idea. we want to make this happen. we think as time progresses we will continue to take their skills and traits other organizations. we're doing that today. we are facilitating this was some of the backbone we have.
>> good afternoon. about $750 of ways. are you including medicare waste? >> yes. >> how much is medicare? >> 40% or 50%. i will tell you there's probably waste in medicare. the policing of it is much harder than the book of business. >> what is being done about that? what should be done at? you could talk forever about the
other aspects of waste. >> if you things. waste is coming from duplicated services. it is coming from fraud. where we are aware of the reasons we are about 15 some of below --- 15% below. let's talk about humana cares. our objective is to keep people at home in an environment they feel most comfortable. we measure this. the goal is to continue people to stay home and take care of them. that helps with that waste. the ability to not have duplicated diagnostic services.
someone overlooking the whole individual has that operation. >> where is that ways? how would you suggest that the tax? -- that be taxed? >> waste is across the platform. there is an article around a fraud and some of the activities that are going on. fraud is a component of that. for us the largest waste is the lack of integrated care. what that means is duplication of services and where people are in wrong aspect of that. i saw you shake your head to the me -- so i must not be answering for question.
>> thank you for the talk that demonstrates what i find very encouraging about this affordable care acts that we are beginning to embrace. it is the tremendous focus on how it plays out in the marketplace. the market is setting itself up for a model player. there are lots of incentives. i'm struggling looking back. this has seemed to get a bad rap as a government takeover. it was conceived of an effort to make the private market place and function better with better roles. i would like to hear from you if you agree that it is a market centered efforts and is not a
government take over. >> i think that the higher, with the dollars are going to be spent and mentioned a little about the insurance. it is planned to have a cost increase. more people will be covered. it will cost the american individual or dollars because of the risk profile is changing. we will probably not be as involved in the exchange market. you will see an increase in that regard. this has not come out in the health care reform. people are raising that. we are a big believer for individuals who are now on medicare. they will see the rates go up.
i think for the reform helps is in the demonstration areas. if you do not see a lot of that coming out today. they really encourage electronic connectivity to bringing the electronic will medical records -- electronic medical records to the provider. we think long term these will have an impact. we are looking at what this is going to expect from a cost point of view in the dollars being pushed around in the industry. long term there will be a lot of benefits from the structural point of view. we're going to learn a lot about that aspect.
a lot of people are focused on the short-term aspect and the funding that will be required. >> i would like you to comment on the exchanges that seem to be somewhat controversial. i do believe our governor has said not now. approach that's steeper for federal or state run? -- approach? do you prefer federal or state run? >> the state is probably a better way to do it. it is the most appropriate way to the care localized. it causes more complications for individuals like myself. and now i have 50 customers as opposed to one customer. health care is local. it is not a national business.
it is a local business. our perspective as we have a perspective of walk before we run. it is to learn and a little bit in withyou jump the everything. so many moving parts. i mention the pricing model is changing. you have this ratio that you have to stay with in. you're going to bring in a lot of people on that have traditionally not been injured. you do not know what their hel alth care is. we have the philosophy of taking baby steps. i think that is what your governor has.
>> one issue we have not addressed today is a delicate issue of the disproportionate spending on health care in the last days and weeks of one's life. given the dubious nature of outcomes, what is he mannes position? >> i might have bread thrown at me. i came out of the cancer business. it was one of the largest companies in the united states. end of life was a very active part of our organization as a part of that disease. what i learned in many dialogues with 2000 positions that were part of our organization is the end of life is best spent in a tie memnon treatment. it is a tough decision because -- in a time of no treatment. is a tough decision because
doctors are not trained to give up. these are very hard discussions to have. it will never come from society. over time having passed this thing part of the treatment plan is an important part of that. we've never encouraged that it that is really the right of the physician -- encourage that. it is really the right of the physician. this allows them to deal with those tough issues in an educated way. this is where we look at our responsibility. it tells them navigate that decision. it is a personal and hard decision. we are believers that hospice is
the right way to do. >> you take it from a cost discussion? >> quality of life discussion. when you make that the cost will bear out here i o. >> by understand it is to bring down the cost of the entire health-care system. >> to probably answering the question. >> the devil is in the details. he was going to be making these decisions as to whether care is provided or not? it was not so long ago that we had to go to a primary-care doctor to get permission to go to a specialist. is it a primary care doctor? is an insurance company? who makes the financial
decisions acts that is really what is going to drive the whole thing. >> i will give you our perspective. our perspective is the physician is at the center of health care. we believe the physician is where that decision is made. we do not believe it is a hospital. we believe it is the physician that makes that decision. we do have a bias to primary care. we believe it sees the overall aspects and having specialist by their side. we believe primary care has a much more holistic view of the care model than just a specialist. specialists are very important part of the health care delivery system.
we do also believe some skin in the game is an important part. if you think about health care today, the individual paying the bill and the individual providing the service and receiving the service are three different groups of people. they have three different interests in mind. they're not always aligned. our belief is aligning those interests together. and having the physician more incentivize around quality and cost, not just around individual units of work. we look at primary care as being an important parts.
primary care is the center part. we believe payers should be in the background, not in the foreground. we think a more close connection between quality and cost is important. [applause] >> today at the city club of cleveland we have been listening to a friday for a featuring bruce broussard, the president at humana inc. thank you. in this forum is now adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> this weekend we are joined by debbie stab and now --
stabenow. join us sunday at 2:00 a.m. eastern and at 6:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span. >> it is quite sure that a people's history is a result of how synthesizing the work of a great many other historians. what had happened in the 1960's with the counterculture was that a whole new generation of young historians had come up and they were evaluating all aspects of our past. >> martin duberman tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2. >> next a discussion about modern-day slavery and in human trafficking with a harvard
university fellow, the author of two books. from an [applause] >> good morning. what a full room. hopefully your minds are fresh and excited for the day. i am delighted to be here to deliver the opening remarks for this very important conference. thank you, professor blight, for that warm introduction. i'm humbled by the recognition of the frederick douglass booker book prize. i have been working on this issue. i left investment banking 12
years ago and started researching. directly document the people in forms of servitude in bondage and gathering data. i have just come back from asia on yet another research trip. after that, i now comprehensively documented the cases of more than 1,300 caught in various forms of modern-day slavery. there is information and data i will share with you based on this research in cases i have documented. you can still challenge me and ask questions. the focus of this conference really could not be more important or timely.
we have a diverse away -- array of individuals on the panel. we are all seeking to better understand and tackle this issue of slavery more effectively. what is slavery in the modern era? how does it relate to past forms of slavery? do we still have slavery today or have a corrupted and sensationalize this term for other means and ends? these are some of the questions i hope we will be able to tackle this weekend. i hope my remarks this morning will help frame this conference as well as these questions as i take a brief look at slavery across the centuries and even look to the future and predict what we might see in the years to come. let us start by going back a few centuries to a phenomenon all of you will most likely be familiar with. that is of course the north atlantic slave trade. i spent some time in nigeria documenting victims of human trafficking, challenging and terrific scenarios.
caught up in a culture of poverty, oppression, organized crime. men, women, boys, and girls. i took a visit to a town about two hours west of the capital lagos. here the portuguese built 510 years ago when the first slave trading outpost on the west african coast. that is the building. obviously there is a different route on it. that is the same structure from five centuries ago. records show more than half a million west africans were brought into this building and then take it out to the beach where they were taken into large seafaring vessels and the course taken to the americas. more than half a million. it is important to note that
just as many of not more people were taken the other way. the north atlantic trade in slaves get a lot of attention but the asia-pacific trade gets much less attention. many people, including west africans, were taken the other way, especially after the passage of the 1833 slavery abolition act in england which excluded the territories of the east india trading company. south asia and india became a new source of trafficked slaves. the used on the labor and that of the contract as a way to avoid deeds of sale of human beings which had been outlawed. all that to say, huge movement of people across centuries in all kinds of directions. some know quite a bit about, some we have studied less. how does this relate to what is going on today? i want to start to answer that
question by reading to you briefly two narrative's prefers comes from someone i know, he wrote a remarkable text and i would encourage everyone to read it called the interesting narrative of the life of equaino, published in 1789. he was promised africa, born in benin, traffic off, sold into slavery trips. but still got his freedom, came back. he became a pivotal figure in the british abolition movement. he wrote his narrative. i want to read a piece of that. he writes, "the first opted that saluted my eyes was the sea and a slave ship. which was then riding an anchor and waited for cargo. these filled me with astonishment which soon converted to terror. i was immediately handled and tossed up to sea if i were found by some of the crew.
i was persuaded i had gotten into a world of bad spirits and they were going to kill me. their complexions being so different from ours, their long hair and the language they spoke which is very different from any i had heard, united to confirm me in the tripoli. such were the horrors of my views and fears that if 10,000 calls had been my own, i would have free the parted with all of them to let exchanged like condition with that of the meanest slaved in my country. at last, when the ship we were in got all of her cargo, they made ready with many fearful noises. we are all put under the deck. so that we cannot see how they managed the vessel.
this discipline and was the least of my sorrow. the stench of the place was intolerably loathsome that it was dangerous to remain there for any time. now that the whole ship's cargo were confined together, it became pestilential. the closeness of the place and heat -- each had scarcely room to turn itself. almost suffocated us. this produced copious perspiration's. the air soon became unfit for restoration. many died, falling victim. this wretched situation was aggravated by the calling of the chain's and the filth of the tubs into which the children often fell. the streaks of the women and groans of the dying renders the whole thing almost inconceivably." this was remarkably potent language describing what it was like to beat traffic into a
slave ship. now i will read to you briefly pump a case i documented two years ago in bangladesh. someone i call mustafa. i'm from bangladesh. we are very poor and it is very difficult to find work. i did not have funds so i took along which they said i could be paid for my wages once i am working. after some months, but given document and the agents deranged trouble for us by ship to kuala lumpur. the ship left. more than 20 were put inside the container at the bottom of the ship. it was part of the were provided torch's. we were only allowed out of the
container from a one hour for toilet. otherwise, we had to stay inside all the time. it was very hard and the smell was very bad. if we had to use the toilet inside the container, there was a small budget. most of us became very sick. i think it was maybe nine days to reach koala lumpur. there we were taken to dormitories with more than 200 men. we slept on mats. each morning at 4:00 we were taken to the construction site. if we did not work hard enough, the bosses would beat us. we have to ask permission to urinate or they would beat us. we were only given to meals each day then taken back inside the dormitory. i did this work for seven months and did not receive any
wages. eventually the police arrested and i was taken away. notice the difference is. -- the similarities. i have got a master slide here drawn from the data i've gathered. i have put some general trends, all of which have its actions -- all of which have exceptions. in the old world, there were long, expensive attorneys. it took weeks to traverse the scene of matter where you were going. today he can move in a short time frame. in old world, there was a limited opportunity to monotype exploration -- exploitation of slaves. people are exported today in dozens of places. i have gathered in extent the
amount of data -- an extensive amount of data. the cost of a slave 20 years ago was between 4900 and $5,500. there is a wide variance. you might have a slate had sold for the equivalent in today's dollars of $10,000 or more. in the americas. there are also documents in bengal and arabia of people being sold for less than a cup of tea. that was centuries ago. then people were born into servitude to read what is the cost of that? not too much. the weighted average cost has stopped. today the average is around $440 for bonded labor, around $230. for victims of commercial sexual exploitation or traffic into that condition, a little more than 1900 dollars. wide variance. you can still have people born into bondage and server to today and the victim of sex trafficking in western europe sold for $10 or more. these are the averages. the immediate economic consequence of this depreciation and cost is an
increase in return on investment. particularly when tied to the fact you can exploit people in dozens of injuries. in the old law, roughly 20% average annual return on investment. today, 300% or more. with sex trafficking, it is more than that. today, it could be a year or a couple of years. it is much shorter. centuries ago, you could legally own human beings. today you cannot actually legally own human beings. but people tend to exact the same kind of exploitation regardless. i have already used a lot of terms and had not really told you what they mean. the reason for that is some of these terms, most of them remain unclear.
there is debate whether you talk to prosecutors, law enforcement, people in the international arena, as to what slavery means and forced labor and him and trafficking. it depends on your asking and where you are in the world. early definitions of slavery focus on the right of ownership. we are familiar with the 1926 league of nations slavery invented. i have the definitions here. you can look them up on line. basically, focusing on actual power to exert over someone based on owning them. as i said, these legal rights to not exist. so what is slavery today? across the last several decades, definitions of slavery have focused on conditions similar to those existed when there
were legal rights of slavery. namely the coercion of involuntary labor services and the absence of a person's freedom of movement and employment. there is a spectrum of what that absence means and that is when it dips down to how restrictive or liberal you want to be on things like coercion and restriction of liberty billy meehan. a key consideration for these definitions have to do with the extent you require. depending on where you are or
who you are talking to, the extent will pepper. the greater the extent of course required, the narrower the definition. in many cases, the term forced labor has been used in place of slavery. exacting a similar type of exploitation. there's still debate as to what is the right term, and the more responsible term. them get to the term he and trafficking -- then we get to the term human trafficking. the definition will so much
defer. i put the standard -- for example, the last couple words includes the removal of organs. some countries do not include organs. we do not include them here. other countries also do not. some countries will include things like forced marriage. other countries do not. depending on where you are, the definition of what human trafficking will somewhat different. i just want to unpack this definition a bit and give you the essence of what all that is. so you have a concept. the first is recruiting,
harboring, or moving. it has to occur through a particular means. forced product coercion. then be for a particular purpose. people who are recruited and transported in a condition of exploitation. trying to define slavery and the contemporary context, we have to get clear on what the essence of these modern forms of slavery is. i posed some questions for us to consider. is the slavery some degree of restrictions on liberty coupled with severe course and a labor or services? is that the just? is it something more conceptual, the denial of the freedom and humanity of an individual to invent the exploiters interest. is that what we mean of talk about slavery?
one thing is clear, a decision needs to be made as to whether the terms slavery should be restricted to mean just cattle slavery. or whether we can take this term and adapted to the modern context. and he's a for the broader array of conditions we see in the modern era. these are some of the pivotal questions many colleagues -- scholars are working with. without a clarity of definition, efforts to understand and research and quantify slavery i think will
remain minimally affected. a few more considerations. when we talk about slavery, and we have to remember this is not just an academic exercise. there are real people suffering real and her affect exploitation each and every day. our ability to identify, protect, and empower these individuals will be tied to the nature and precision above definition. if the definition is not clear, we cannot clearly identify people. or punish the exploiters. the more narrow the definition, that you are people who can clot -- qualify.
the broader, the more protected we can be. there is a delicate balance here still being worked out in the community. as to the pure academic rigor and wanting to be narrow and precise and human-rights implications. this tension is an important engine and one that still has to work itself out. there is one falsehood of to clarify. whatever definition you use, there are not more slate today than any point in human history. when people say this, they tend to be comparing of lives around
the world today or they are using different definitions. the use a broad definition of slavery that includes bonded labor with the only account cattle slaves from the past. there were multiples of that number of people caught. we have to compare all the same forms of slavery past and present. if we only count cattle and the past, then today is close to zero. if we count bonded labor, there were tens of millions of the past of not more.
having said this, it is important to note slavery is a legal and morally unacceptable today which has not been the case for the majority of human history. the existence of whatever number of slaves to -- i will not go into the specific definition i used. it will take too much time to go into the nuances and footnotes but basically you have a sense i'm marking on a definition that has to do with restrictions of liberty, according of labor and service. i have been gathering data through random sampling for more than a decade. i take my definition and my most current book and i say if we construe this problem, the numbers will look like this. if we are more narrow and what we mean by terms like coercion and restrictions of liberty, the next slide shows you those numbers. with 95% confidence, i can tell you the number of slaves in the world at the end of last year is between 28.4 and 32.6. you can divide slaves into different buckets. these other ones i have identified. the mean is broadly 30.5 million. if you go restrictive and eliminate certain things like
seasonal debt bondage as certain forms of trafficking where it is not clear a person is under the same level of the arrest and corrigan as some of the office scenarios -- arrest and coersion as some of the official scenarios. this is the argument we have to recognize. the numbers drop and your mean of the confidence is 22.4 million at the end of last year. by my calculation, i think there is somewhere between 22 and 30 million people caught in these three forms of slavery. that does not mean i'm right. that is based on my data set and extrapolation models which are open for critique. to understand slavery, we need to understand what are the forces promoting this system. the forces that are causing their to be slaves in the world. you can divide these into forces that promote a supply a potential slaves and the demand side. those that promote the demand for potential slave labor. assessing these forces will help us understand how we might better defined slavery and attack the problem. these forces have remained similar across history. they fluctuate in terms of what might be the most important force or what the scale may be but they are similar. obviously property is an important factor.
roughly 40% of the planet lives on an income of less than $2.50 a day. this is -- a latte at starbucks is more than this. this is the daily income of four out of 10 people in the world. if you do calculations, it is not enough for a shelter, food, fuel, etc. they are perpetually in come deficient. other forces, lack of access to form a credit markets. we can get to a bank but many credit. many people cannot do that to the cook to informal markets where they are often than exploited. social instability, military complex -- conflict, disaster climate change -- you get the picture. these render people vulnerable to be potentially exploited. supply-side forces. on the demand side, the specific forces of demand will vary depending on what kind of industry we are talking about. with commercial sex, there is a demand related to mail the man to purchase commercial sex. there are is in -- always to forces that exist. that is they demand to maximize profits and consumer demand. to buy things at the lowest
possible retell price. let me unpack those. for almost any business, labor is usually the highest it's not one of the highest cost opponents to their operating expenses. producers have tried to minimize labor costs. slavery is the extreme of this. let's eliminate are virtually eliminate labor costs. drastically lowering your operating expenses allows you to do one other thing. you can become more competitive by lowering the price of whatever it is you are selling. this element is one of the most important differences between the logic of old world slavery and the contemporary manifestation of slavery which is the globalization of competition. what does that mean? if you consider the retail price of the things we buy, the price of any products or services is largely determined by the things i've outlined here.
if you strip a major cost -- upon it out of the model, producers can finally balance their desire to boost their profits and lower the price of whatever they are selling to boost consumption or competitiveness. this is what is called the price elasticity of demand. depending on the kind of products you are selling, the federation can be very high or low. in general, consumers will almost always preferred a lower-priced version of the same thing where all the other variables like quality are the same. producers try to compete with each other by minimizing price. a very effective way to minimize price of attending profitability, and other imperative in the catholic marketing economy, is to exploit labor. in a globalized economy, the need to be price competitive is greater than ever. since transportation costs have dropped in the last 90 years
making these phones -- they make around $2 or $3 an hour. people ask why doesn't apple move the jobs here? you cannot find anyone here legally whose income would max out at $3. and transportation is so inexpensive, they commit them over here and ship -- make them over there and ship them here. they are not involved in slavery but i'm giving you the sense of sourcing of labor are round the world and the stream child labor, forced labor -- and
the extreme child labor, forced labor. how we attack it based on this economic profile? understanding the key shift in the logic of contemporary forms of slavery point as to assert a kind of tactics and policies that might prove more affected. one would be attacked the profits generated by the exploitation. make it less profitable and rewarding to be involved in the exploitation of child laborers, slaves, etc. these products are coming from over there -- understand, document, and cleanse the supply chains. and raise awareness of the perils involved in the global supply chain to make choices to products that are untainted by these offenses. >> in other words, we want to
use the market forces to attack the economic market of modern day slavery. so i mention supply chains and this is an interesting topic and it is getting more attention in the antislavery community. understanding the supply chains of everything we buy and consume every day. in the course of my research traced and documented the many things we buy here today on the far side of the world. frozen shrimp, coffee, etc. it is important to note that these corrupted and tainted supply changes are not one time
events but they create a cycle of vulnerability. when you are exploiting labor on the far side of the world you imperil those local communities by suppressing economy, destabilizing the local economy and you create a cycle of voluntarily inability. when you are exploiting children or labor on the far side of the world. so i mentioned a few, i'm going to give you an example of shrimp. i spent about a month in bangladesh a couple of months ago documenting the frozen shrimp supply chain. it is a manageable, relatively small exporter of shrimp compared to champion, taiwan, and vietnam. there are a couple of key steps. first is catching shrimp. this is done at the tip of the bangladesh and this is mostly done by children. some of them have boats and
they catch them with nets most of them wade into the water and they spend the day in these muddy waters, catching these baby shrimp. there is nothing else they can do. the baby shrimp has to grow into big shrimp. many of these shrimp farms that are expanding, many of them are -- landowners have this land, they displaced many workers, transformed the land into shrimp farming and farmers take out loans to lease the land. so there is debt bondage in the harvesting scenario. the next is processing. the shrimp is taken to processing plants so they are deveined and then frozen for shipment. there is a lot of rumors of
forced labor in the processing plants but i was turned away at gunpoint, and not small guns at every single processing plant i went to. violently in some cases except for one, that one was ok. the wages were kind of low but there was no severe forced labor going on. i got a sense on how it was done. i couldn't quantify the processing stage to say so much is tainted by forced labor. what i was able to do in tracing the supply chain is quantity fie the ratio of global shrimp that will be tainted by child labor or bonded labor. that is one out of 57 shrimp. so one out of 57 shrimp in the world is tainted by forced labor. it will also go lower when you add vietnam, champion.
i can't stress enough about the meticulous data. what does that mean? it means every american eats one to three pieces of shrimp a year, tainted. this is kind of the work that is happening now. i encourage you young people to be a part of this and run out there and trace these supply chains. goingimportant if we're to tackle modern forms of child labor. one final exercise i -- i always run over on my time. i want to get specific. i've been theoretical all morning.
i gave one specific example of the shrimp supply chain. i want to say to that the entire logic and reasoning of why that shrimp exists in bangladesh, it is only 18 years old and that is because of climate change. rising sea levels and then the landowners realize that shrimp is less labor intensive than rice. if you have tried to plant rise before it takes a lot of people. all right, so we talked about the past, and the present so i want to get specific and look at a case study. this will illustrate many of the points i have tried to discuss. this case study will be the oldest which is still persisting today then is bonded labor. so bonded labor, how did it work in centuries past? well, i provide an overview in my new book that just came out, i hope you guys get a chance to read it and send me your
feedback. it is based on a credit labor agreement. what that means is in the past you had large numbers of landless peasants. so they had to barter their labor as a means of survival. these lasted for the lifetime. it was prevalent around the world, all over the world. the manifestations in the old world was as cruel and exploitive as any in the slavery and it involved just out right exploitation. this was largely around the world because of social revolution except for one region.
you could still find bonded agreements everywhere but it is concentrated in south asia. now why the persist answer in south asia? i touched on this earlier the british period reinforced and expanded bonded labor in south asia. it was specifically excluded from 1833 in england and that allowed india to be a replacement source of slaves. to provide legitimacy, bonded agreements were used in place of exchange for deeds of sales of human beings. bonded labor became legally enforceable under the workman breach of contract at of 1859. this made it an illegal to breach a contract. you can imagine that offers offering you a bonded contract, i will give you a loan, i will take you to jamaica, we're going to put you to work and
once you are there it was servitude. if you break the agreement, the penalty was this, this, and this. so it became legally enforceable. there were broader policies that further expanded that policy. it was in 1873 which was nothing short of dispossessing hundreds of thousands, if not millions of peasants and then immediately putting them in bondage. so the british empire became filled with millions of slave that were kept in child-like conditions. 1947, bonded labor persists because of poverty, corruption, and these other forces that
we've talked about on the supply side in addition to very the reminisce of a rigid cast system. on the demand side, the global economy feeds and promotes under regulator labor markets. how has the system changed in modern tames? is it the same? and what has that has changed in slavery? is bonded labor slavery? i say yes but some will ask that question. here are some examples of bonded labors i've documented. case't give you all the studies but basically, this gentleman in pakistan i documented millions of south asians were involved in making and building bricks he is caught in a life cycle of bondage that started with a small loan. it does not matter how hard he works he will never get out of it. bondage is often used in carpet waving in south asia.
here some children i documented in that pal. anyone under 18 should not be waving carpets these kids were all 11, 12, 13. they worked 16, 17 hours a day. these are the carpets that are exported to the u.s. and put in our sitting rooms. this is often the production environment. a local product type of south asia cigarette. a hurricane in 2009 wiped out a large swath of southeastern ban gal and the land owners came in and said we will rebuild your home but in exchange for that you have to do this. so they don't get a wage they get a roof. this is a raw tobaccos going into the hands of children. agriculture is another one.
often seasonal contracts they will go between agriculture and carpets depending to season. because of the seasonal jumping around and entering into these bondage agreements these are voluntary so i don't know if they count as slavery or forced labor. stone breaking is another big one that has been going on for generations and generations it feeds in the construction industry. they were subject of the second supreme court case on bonded labor in india. 1983 case, someone brought a claim under the bonded labor act in india which was passed in 1976. i went to the same one three decades later and many of the same conditions still exist even though the support of india
issued an indictment against bonded labor. it still exists. it has become less of a system of lifetime servitude. you can still find that but it is less a system of today than it was in the past. it is now more of a seasonal concept. it is a vehicle that is used globally. it is used in domestic work and construction. he could not pay that $5,000 it was given to him as credit, he worked for seven months, and then sent back. never had a penny. in other words, this phenomenon has become more nimble, and a more in variegated in nature. it is difficult sometimes to identify if something is a pure debt bondage agreement -- a
bonded labor scenario or it is a legitimate contract labor. it is very challenging. in fact, exploiters utilize the tactics, they know the law. they will utilize tactics to make it more difficult that guy is exploiting bonded labor and of course, their power and influence to intimidate people to have them say i'm doing this by choice. they say it must be called voluntary i don't agree with this so it is not slavery. this question is at the heart of what slavery is in the modern context. it forces us to consider the question of whether a there is a lack of reasonable alternative that can be forced as coercion to be considered as slavery. when i give you that high number that includes a yes
answer to this question. if there is no reasonable sustained and security income source that is for the reason that someone enters into an agreement to western europe to engage in a, b, or c, or someone that enters into a bonded labor agreement. if it is because there was not a reasonable alternative, the alternative was worse then i think it does qualify as a sufficient form of coercion to say that is not a voluntary agreement. but economists will argue against that. depending on how you answer this question, the quantum of modern slavery is going to fluctuate quite significantly, up to 50%. this is at the heart of what is
or is not modern day slavery. whether we consider this sufficient. more on the contemporary manifestation. i believe the same characteristics is what we see when we sample various forms of what we call slavery around the world today. it is more nimble, it is very, very investigated. all forms and modes, all evolving forms and mode of having slave-like transportation. very easy to identify these things. it does not work like that anywhere. exploiters use tactics that will help them avoid identification. the phenomenon cons to evolve that continues to be one step ahead, every time we step up with what is happening today, the traffickers have moved on to the next phase on how to get away with it.
so treating it with something simplistic i believe is going to -- it the question must be asked again what is slavery, what is not? i think a more set of definitions is required, in particular, the definition must not stretch the boundaries of the concept but it must be nuanced to capture what we need to call slavery today. it must move on to those who use this term carelessly and even the general public perceiving this issue is under analyzed or not yet a mature movement. a heavy premium should be placed on research to quantify and guide policy. i said i would look to the future, i'm going to prognosticate with my magic crystal ball. what will slavery look like in the years to come? it will be here so what will it look like?
i think it will continue to evolve and continue to evade simple definition and analysis. this puts a premium on a new assessment on what it is today. so we hopefully won't have to rewrite our definitions and laws. in particular, exploiters, and i talked to them about this they have become inept to able to exploit slaves. another key point is a the line between severe slavery is going to blur. what i mean by that, there is a spectrum of what i call labor exploitation. it could be child labor or low- wage labor, on some point on that spectrum you cross the line on slavery.
that line is blurry now and it is going to get more blurry. labor markets will continue to be sourced by the global market for profit. there is no way around this. this means raising this alone will fail to tackle the issue if it is not supplemented the issue if it is traced what is going on particularly by a supply chain standpoint. each sector in this movement, all of you belong to some sector of this movement in party's interest in slavery. or have important efforts to play in the future. i'm going to tell you what those efforts should be. i think we in the academic sector should lead the field with policy recommendations especially relating to issues in definitions and supply chains. n.g.o.'s should guidance from scholars.
governments need to allocate more resources and enforcements that are designed to dismantling servitude while helping the survivors. if we're doing a poor job of understanding and tackling slavery we're doing a pathetic job in empowering those of the exploitation. international stakeholders have to under take similar efforts but with their focus on transnational transportation. every day citizens have to organize in more effective social movements. also shift the products that one day will be cleansed and certified as being untainted. charitable foundations have to continue providing resources for research as well as service for resources between governments and academia. so final word, servitude will
continue to be in the future, whether some, all, or none of these can be called i slavery or will be called slavery must be tackled. must has changed with slavery but as activists much is still the same. at one level the lines between forced labor, debt bondage are vital to understand if we're going to properly tackle these issues. at another level, getting so specific loses its fruitfulness. no matter what, these are unacceptable modes of exploitation that should no longer be apart of the human condition in any scenario. there is space for new
leadership to spear head these efforts. i hope one of you or many of you will fill that space. it is wide open for new leaders to take the mantle of moving this academic and activist movement forward. it is my hope that someone here will be that person, will be inspired after this weekend to say i'm going to be the one to organize all of us and lead us into a new and more effective era of tackling and erotizing slavery. thanks. \[applause] >> questions, but please make sure you wait for the microphone. >> anyone standing on the aisles there are seats down here if you want to come down. let's open this up to questions. i wanted to say i had a sudden
flash it could be 1810 and we could be in a huge english church, without slides. he could tell us more about this at the gathering of his time. i have many things i would like to say but let's go to the audience. >> i want to make a distinction between the old slaveries and the newbie saying that in a sense market globalization transformed and made the old slavery disappear. do you have any instant of cases in which that old slavery disappeared because the producers, the purchases of that labor decided that slavery was less expensive than these new
forms? brazil, u.s., britain, france, spain. >> a very interesting question. i think my first response would be to say i'm not sure so much that all forms of slavery disappeared as so much evolved in transition. obviously, there were laws passed that made a certain thing illegal. from a paper law stand point certain things disappeared. but the case of bonded labor it showed that things did not disappear but adapt to a different set of laws and climate. then evolved around those hurdles to continue to effect the same kind of mode of exploitation. as to whether f there was a point in the past where
producers were faced with a scenario where one set of nonslave-like labor bake more economic efficient there are certainly few instances. i think the historians here would probably have those more in their head than i do. particularly in case where is laws with penalties were perceived to be enforced. then the perception is that form of exploitation is no longer beneficial. we either have to evade it and try to do something similar or adopt for legitimate labor and labor costs. >> my hypothesis might be if slave owners held on to that system as long as they could. only to adopt under the pressure of those laws and made the transition only under that coercion and duress.
>> i think you are exactly right. this is an example of radical social change that happens under top-down pressure. sometimes it happens by movements like civil rights moment or right to vote for women in this country and sometimes it has to come from top down change. when that top down change is perceived to be efficiently enforced, then the exploiter has to adapt. what you see with forms of slavery today there are laws, there are penalties. by in large they are not perceived to be effectively active and enforced so the exploiter does not have to adapt too much or adapt just enough to avoid identification. >> thank you for a stimulating presentation.
i want to get your reaction to the idea in general terms that maybe the diagnosis is only as good as the remedy it prescribes. in a particular way of asking that question, i would like to hear you say what your study on the shrimp supply chain suggests about an appropriate remedy for the exploitation that we're seeing there. and secondly, in more conceptual terms, all related to remedies. if you excuse me asking more than one question relating to different parts of your presentation. secondly, whether in conceptual terms it might not make more sense to draw a line between slavery and other forms of severe exploitation as to where
the line it makes sense to separate the slave from her exploiter. if there are situations that it makes more sense to seek a higher wage for the person in the employment that they are carrying out so have their children go to school instead of having them in the fields. if it makes more sense for it to call it something other than slavery. the remedy has to be to separate the slaves from the slave holder. >> very interesting points. the first one is quite crucial. i've given you an analysis and arguments and in my book i give specifics based on my arguments. but as the gentleman pointed out until we know if the recommendations are working we don't know the basis of your analysis.
say you take my recommendations and you do them full throttle and nothing changes. maybe my analysis isn't so good. maybe approaching this from an economic stand point isn't the right way. we need to deploy test beds where we deploy certain types of tactics and measure them. i think that feedback will tell us what kind of approaches that might prove more effective. it will be a balance between the law enforcement -- pure law enforcement and criminal law approach with the global economic approach and of course, the human right ace
approach. all of which suggest slightly different kinds of approaches and tactics and priorities. but we have to test and we have to find out. i feel good about what i've done and i think if we try some of these tactics some might work quite well, some maybe not so well. what i hope to do in my future work is some of these test bed ideas. i think it really depends on what kind of servitude we're talking about and where we are in the world. in the end, it could be an interesting line to draw. to say, when we're faced with a scenario that has to be separated or extracted, immediately because of the horrific pearl they are in, maybe we find a way of defining
that as slavery. my fear is that there is always scenarios where you don't necessarily have to do that but it is the level of exploitation and sometimes that immediate extract while necessary could cause more harm than good if done too quickly. i would not want to disqualify those as a result. it is have interesting. i could go on and on. >> you don't have to get up in the aisle, we could bring the mics to you. >> joe cook. i appreciate the value of an economic analysis but i can't help but feel it would be useful to help with an explain tory model. slaveries were symbols of consumption, they were for reproduction, they were entitled toward fair, they were used to sacrifices.
it seems to me that a generalized model that has the economic patent is going to have a harder time with forced marriage, slavery and war, and various other things. i don't mean it suicide a criticism but to say you can't say everything you want to say. but what about the noneconomic component in how we think and respond to slavery? >> i think your point is well taken. i couldn't agree more. i think understanding the evolution of the economic logic of most forms of slavery in the world today is important in terms of how we design our laws in the big picture. these are also fundamental human rights and human dignity. that is an important threat in all the work i do. my books are much more about sharing the human narrative with little on the front end and
back end on the economics. at yale university i went more scholarly with you. i came across in nigeria something i could not imagine seeing. i could not have imagined it but if i did imagine it i didn't think i would see it. there was a baby factory. these were young women from nigeria who had been tricked in and brought in to this apartment. they were kept there and they were forcibly impregnated. had the babies and those babies had two outcomes, one was international adoption and the
other was used in voodoo rituals. there is no way to tackle this from an economic stand point. it is useless. it is fundamental horrific. how do you deal with that? well, i mean, the one economic component these women are facing such horrific poverty that they are desperate for any offer, doesn't matter who it is or what it is. they did not sign up for that but they will take whatever offer you give them and go with you. at the end of the day, this is outright unimaginable. do we call that slavery? i take you point and i agree with you. we have to attend to the human dignity and the affront on human dignity that these offenses entail. but the ones that guide the most
effective policy. >> i see six, seven, hands. >> this is an interesting thread that i wanted to jump in on. what occurs to me there are a number of parts to my question. number one is how would a gender analysis of your particular theme might bring us away to separate out or to highlight some peculiar forms, just as you mentioned where women are exploited. simply looking outside the united states may not make -- may not be as complete as possible because of -- for example your description of forced labor would include prostituted in the inner city
where pimps are acting as your definition of slave owners. how do you respond to models like that? >> well, some people would argue that sex workers or prostitutes in the inner cities are victims of sex trafficking and others would argue they are not. it gets to that issue i put my finger on in terms of what constitutes coercion and involuntary labor? what is the alternative? then you deal with things like coercion doesn't just involve -- it is taking control over someone. i saw voodoo priests where they took over women and put a curse over them. never go to the police, and
never do this, and they had great terror. i went to his shrine and he had photographs on the wall outside of the deformed women he cursed for breaking the rules. i spent 15 minutes with this guy, it was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. i have been shot at and this does not compare of being in the same room with this guy. there is no way to escape the fact that gender is pivotal to these issues. almost everywhere you go in the world, belonging to female gender is going to put you at significant disadvantages in terms of rights, education, etc. when you are facing those disadvantage and layering on top of that poverty, and you
are vulnerable to being trafficked or exploited. sex trafficking affects women but so does other form of trafficking and servitude. women and children are the most vulnerable and when off minority female, then you have the double whammy. these people are helpless at their faiths. you might say tell them don't take the offer. raise awareness. when you go to the boonies and you try to do this the response you get is -- it can't be worse than this. the lives they are facing of being sexually abused, living in poverty, having no rights, their alternative is so bad they
will take whatever hopeful offer they can. the gender lens is very important. >> david, can you bring the mic down here? we have a lot of hands, folks. >> thank you very much. thank you for your thoughtful and touching presentation. i was wondering in your recommendation through your fight against modern slavery you could include something about -- i'm going to explain why. you mention in your presentation the impact of climate change in bangladesh. you also mention in the modern advantages you left out the cost of transportation and you mentioned the cost of transportation has been reduced tremendously in the last 100 years because of fossil fuels.
so these fossil fuels on the one hand enable the exploit of slavery to places where, you know, it is easier to exploit people but it also contributes to climate change. so raising a tax on fossil fuels would be a way to reduce this exposure to climate change and to raise money to fight slavery, for example. >> well, i hadn't thought of that. \[laughter] i think that is a good thing. meaning, i'm excited about the fact that there is innovative and interesting ideas in the room. i hope to hear more of them. it is a daring question. you are absolutely right. fossil fuels and modern transportation contribute to the ease in moving people. many of them just move by foot and other things but it also contributes to climate change.
i'm not sure what the political implications would be to someone who makes this proposal. i think it would be a challenge for someone to successfully get a tax like that implemented but the idea, the concept of putting a tax or a price premium on something, some commodity as a way to fund human rights effort in general, whatever they might be. that is an interesting idea. how many of us would be willing to add 5%, 3% to the things we buy if we knew it was going into human rights activity to funding that? i would do that, some people wouldn't for economic reasons and that is ok. but that is a bold and interesting idea and climate change is at the heart of a lot of instances displacement and doffers that result in population displacement.
it leaves people vulnerable not to just slavery but all kinds of things. it sounds like you are down the path to good efforts in this area so i look to seeing more. >> seem people would call that tax slavery which some already call taxes and debt but that is a different matter. i have a lot of hands so let's keep going. >> first of all, i think you brought some great insight into the contemporary problem of slavery. i had a couple of concerns, first of all, maybe this is somewhat representative of what you said, but the slavery movement is a bit uncomfortable with giving that any academic is going to be focused on one particular interest.
let alone the struggle that it is waging. but i think one of the things that was absent from your analysis is the idea of slaves having their own freedom and if you look at the history of india much of antislavery legislation has been a result not from anybody on the outside but the bondage slaves saying they want something better. i think when we're getting into -- if you think of the state of india it becomes another set of complexity around them. first there is a question of roll-off government. there has been important legislation brought in by the union of india and we've seen
more eradicate these problems. it seems to be a failure of government. second thing you did mention but you did not highlight, when we're talking about india the fundamental issues is cast, it is the vast majority that are in slaves are in low cast or minority groups. this is the idea of people not wanting to let go of slavery because of the privileges it gives them. when we're trying to think about political engagement of our country and support of the grass roots movement off slaves we see a more complex and difficult process which is one which is, in fact, which is not eliminated by human rights or other sorts of lenses but which need be looked at by a social
lens in the terms of social movement building. i think that is someone missing from your analysis but no more academic can say everything in a limited period of time. >> thank you for those points. they are all well-taken. i do spent quite a bit of my book on caste. there are disenfranchised groups but tribes in thailand and burma for example, certain ethnic groups in africa. you can go down the list. there is always a class who are at the fringes and have historically been at the fringes sometimes in slavery or in other bad conditions.
so it is fundamental and i go into that in more detail in my book. it does require -- not a simple but it does require something different which is social transformation. you can't economically argue away that issue. you can't criminal law your way out of that issue. it requires radical social transformation which will take time. better efforts, new efforts, i gave new ideas in my book that will help this caste issue needs to be undertaken. by in large, the people at the bottom of the pyramid are at the low caste. again, i completely agree, the first thing i do is hear about what is being exploited is saying. this is why i have so many case studies now. what are their pains?
what do they want? it is useless to try to work with a population without hearing from them directly, what do they need? what are their priorities? if it is freedom and liberation, what does it mean to them? it could mean something different to me than it does for me. it could be more simple. so hearing those voices and working that into our approach with policy and law and the efforts it is very important. i couldn't agree more. having said that they do need top down assistance. there needs to be work and pressure coming from above to help them realize that liberation and sustain it so they don't slip back into it because of vulnerability. that needs to come from governments and government structures. i think the first one, the
leadership of academia. i think what i'm focusing on here is we're at this moment, we've been trudging through this moment in the movement of some time -- for some time of what is this thing? how do we define it? how do we identify it? how do we quantity fie it? throughwe're trudging that and those answers come out of research. and researchers always have to work with n.g.o.'s because those are the ones on the ground with the local relations and knowledge and understanding to allow research to be done effectively and ethically. i think the leadership has to get us over the hurdle, what is this thing, how do we define it? how do we trace it? based on that knowledge we have an array of stakeholders that come in and how do we tackle it?
everywhere i go i relate to n.g.o.'s who know more about it than i ever could. >> let's go to this gentleman right here. ok. we're going to take a few more. >> i look at the u.s. state department reports on human trafficking. it's going in every country in the world from a to z. they talk about the transportation of men, women, and children. specifically they talk about the sex trade. so do you have some kind of break down of percentage of women, the percentage of that type of sex slavery versus labor or production or whatever?
and is sex slavery a lost cause? >> ok, two very different questions. the first one, yes, do have a break down. it was in the charts in terms of people who were trafficking for sex -- i forget my own numbers. it is kind of like 55/40, 60/ 45 something like that. it is in my book as well. based on my sampling and that is globally. so region to region the numbers could fluctuate quite a bit from there. is sex slavery a lost cause? i assume you meant by trying to tackle it. i don't think so. look, to her point about gender, this is an a fight that has been fought for centuries,
empowerment and protection of female gender. that movement has come a long way but a long way to go. ok, in all developed economies there is still asymmetries. when you get out to the rural parts of the country, those imbalances are still there. they feed into people why males think that women can be exploited. that will take time. we've come a long way so i'm not filled with hopelessness. i think we can overcome this. in certain parts of the world i think it will take a little longer. i think if there is a enough people in this cause i think we'll succeed. >> robert you are next. >> one of the most interesting things to me about this field is that we've been using the
same number to measure the scope of the problem 27 million in slaves for the last 15 years and it is supposed to be -- i don't know if it's been 15 years but it has been a lot of years to measure the fastest growing illegal system of the world. in the first few pages in the forward of your book you say what we need to do is define what slavery is and you say how do we quantity fie what slavery is? doesn't that undermine all of your conclusions on what the scope of slavery is and when do we get to that? when do we begin to start defining what slavery is and how are we going to quantity fie it? >> i do offer my definition. it is a slightly different definition than my second book.
that definition has changed because of my own thinking and evolution and research has expanded or at alternative my definition. it is based on my definition that i offer numbers. that is direct data sampling. i have counted and i have hired other people to help me count around the world. i'm the only one that has done primary data gathering. they have done a wonderful job on producing what is a reliable data. it has not changed in a long time, i don't know what it consists of or where it came from. i don't think that is a academically strong number. i agree, it hasn't changed and we're not sure what it consists of and how it was calculated.
it tells us how they have done their work and i helped to advise on that. in my footnotes i provide specifics on how i did my data sampling and how it has changed. but it is a model that has to have assumptions. we can't count everybody but counting is important. being transparent about methodology. and how numbers are changing and growing and going the other way if that is the case is also important. i think there are a lot of numbers out there for better or worse. the u.n. has some, others have some and i think we have to be very rig recess about scrutinizing where did it come from? has that been published or made transparent? how are the numbers being updated and changed? what goes into the number? what kinds of slaves?
they are not all just slaves, right? they are various kinds of slavery so what goes into the number? i try to do that for what it is worth. but governments and the u.n. probably has to take this on and do broad sampling. take a hybrid of what i did and scale it up. just putting numbers and not saying how i calculated? being transparent, describing the detail, that is not going to help us and that is why some people question the validity of our research and that is not helpful to any of us. >> can we take a student question? >> recently i've been studying about the dynasty and we were looking at how, like you were saying, there was different standards because the economy was moving higher up in
positions. what point do you think that shifted again to bringing more slavery into the coming years? >> ok, say that one more time. are you asking me to comment on the dynasty? >> no, comment on what point do you think there was a shift, originally during the dynasty commoners were reaching high herb positions and -- >> when we might see something like that today? that is perceptive and interesting question. it speaks to human development and this is a big term that is thrown out at the u.n. and all people focus on economic development and human development. you're talking about people moving up the economic ladder. when they get to a point where they have a sufficient level of income where they can save money that they can use when there is a crisis and they can
afford medicines they are not as vulnerable as being exploited. that is a fundamental imperative. i mean for many reasons to help lift these 40% of the planet that is in poverty higher up on the economic ladder. they are less vulnerable to all kinds of exploitation including being trafficked. you see some of that but we still have 2.5 billion people in poverty. not all of them being exploited but they are being vulnerable. >> you guys go deep. right back here. can we get the mic? thanks. i'm going to take two more questions then we have to break, folks. >> i think you said that in global supply chains slave
labor show uses up in supply chains, the more elastic demand is the more likely there is a slave chain in that? >> i'm not sure of that correlation. >> my question is, is there any research that slave labor goes down in product change when demand has -- >> that is interesting. i haven't sliced my data that way but i have some products that are elastic and some that are not. i'm trying to think offhand, like hand woven carpets are probably elastic and they are pretty expensive. if you add 20% to 30% to the cost then the demand will drop but there is plenty of exploitation in that sector. seafood is more elastic. i mean, the price point is kind
of low so percentage fluctuates don't hurt too much. you also have child labor and forced labor in that supply chain. but your question bears some kind of slicing of the data and looking at maybe there are differences in the extent to which you find exploitation depend on the consumer elasticity of the product. i have not sliced my data that way. but it is an interesting question. >> he will be around all day so hang around. we're going to take one more question before our coffee break. >> thank you for your presentation. my question is a bit of a technical one. we're talking about measuring slavery. you mention that it is a revolve doors these day.
i'm interests in seeing not how many slaves are at a given time but in a generation how many will go through slavery. secondary, there is slavery caused by market forces, which is what we talked about but also slaves that erupts in times of corruption like worlds war two. the modern era and situation many people become slaves. i wonder if you know any projects that deal with this. >> i'm sure there are some. more to deal with the issues of the relationship between the military strife and slavery- servitude. we all know there is a correlation. there are books that focus on not. i cannot bring any to the front of my mind just now.
might example incorporates an assumption on the average duration. it captures the fact that people are caught in used for different amounts of time. and i have calculated the average duration of servitude based on the different categories, because they are different. again, speak to the importance of doing actual data gathering. you can see that the circumstances get shorter and you can extrapolate a sense in a given year, how many people were in bondage. so, that is one way of going about it. another is to multiplied out and say at this point in time, people are coming in and out. at any given time, you would have this many. ilo, their number is from year a
to year b, there were x numbers of slaves in the world. is just a different way of doing mouth. >> thank you for that brilliant, moving keynote address. it is what that conference desperately needed. make no apologies for crunching numbers. i know you are not apologizing. do not get depressed. we will solve all your questions in the next session. if not that one, surely the afternoon session. there is coffee upstairs. we want you back in 10, maximum 15 minutes. thank you very much. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012]
>> we continue the discussion on slavery and human trafficking with a group of authors and professors. the talk about defining slavery in contemporary society. this is an hour-and-a-half. >> unlike the ones to come that will be panels, we will begin with a paper that we will make available. it should be on our web site. then two respondents. joel moved to south africa a year ago. he was a deputy director for the study of slavery and
emancipation. at the opening conference, and i know brian davis is here today, he was there as well, david and i had the great privilege and for me a thrill to speak at that opening conference at the global affairs institute. at that conference, if none of you have been up to england, you should go. an extraordinary, victorian house that has become -- they have a wall of fame of abolitionists. each bus speakers had to represent one of those abolitionists. i was frederick douglass.
at any rate, it was one of the thrills of my recent life. dole -- joel is the author of many books, including the anti- slavery project from the slave trade to human trafficking. he is co-editor of "slavery, identity, and memory." you do not sleep. joel on the crucial questions of defining slavery. joel?
[applause] >> i would like to start by taking this opportunity to thank you david and your team. having spent 26 hours on the planet, i have to say that any problems arising out of this presentation can be attributed to just lie -- jet lag. what i want to say, starting this presentation, this is a paper that was commissioned specifically for this conference. while i worked on the area of definitions in the past, i felt obliged to write something new. that is never a good idea.
the paper is cracking at the seams. i hope it speaks and advances some of the issues and complications we heard in the previous keynote. before i get to the paper, i just want to say something about where i am coming from and where this fits in terms of broader research i have done. i have been working on a slavery for nearly 15 years. the primary motivating idea, the sport at the start was the idea that there were a lot of people talking about contemporary slavery. there are now a lot more people in the late 1990's. now we have a lot more people. there are a lot of people who talk about the history of slavery and abolition. when i was beginning my work, there was an expectation or assumption these things were separate and independent fields
of study. you have the history of slavery on one hand and a contemporary slavery on the other. what i had been doing over the course of my research is trying to explore and interrogate the various ways in which these two bodies of scholarship can be integrated. here in particular i have taken issue with the familiar but increasingly outmoded distinction between all slavery, by which we mean it transatlantic slavery, and new slavery, which is tied and assumed to be a distant phenomenon. i am trying to complicate and contest that particular viewpoint. i have tried to think about how the history of slavery can be used to inform and shape how we think about problems happening in our own time. i tried to think in particular
of history as a strategic template that enables us to fight better and frame the language so we do not feel obligated to reinvent the wheel or not learned -- or try to learn from things that happened in the past. second, i have tried to push on a number of fronts the idea of the history of slavery, while it is nice to think about it as a template for inspiration and instruction, in many cases, it is much of cause for caution and complication. there are a number of issues and events and trajectories associated with the legal abolition of slavery in which its limitations are central and fundamental to what is happening in our own times. in this paper, i want to think
about two things -- the first is, i want to think about how we can define and conceptualize slavery as a category, and in thinking about that, i am particularly interested in how we deal with this for a recurring ambiguity which arises at points of intersection between the slavery and what i want to describe as other forms of human bondage. the problem should be familiar to most of us. slavery has been legally abolished, yet we still have a bunch of problems that invite comparison to what we think about in terms of historical slavery. there is this impulse or instant that these are in some way related or connected or associated. at the same time, we have a lot of ambiguity surrounding this. in this presentation, i want to do a couple of things.
the first thing i want to do is lay out a set of ideas and frameworks for how we might think about the problems associated with defining slavery and its relationship to things like debt bondage, human trafficking, child labor, and so on. i want to say, this is how we can begin to think about the interconnections between these things. second, i want to offer some tentative solutions for how i feel we should think about these things. if the framework for describing the problem and a series of ted solutions -- the framework for describing the problem and a series of texas solutions -- of tentative solutions. when i was doing my power point presentation today, i was acutely aware of everything i left out in my paper. there are some suggest -- some
suggestions and working out the back story about the conclusions i want to present. some of it is hidden off stage. i invite you to press me on any issues i have not adequately covered. in thinking about slavery and human bondage, i want to suggest that there are three approaches that we need to think about when it comes to this issue. the first is strategic minimization, the idea that slavery can be restricted to an idea of true or genuine slavery. this idea of slavery should be held as separate and distinct from other categories. the second is what i call rhetorical inflation, the idea that slavery can be best employed as a strategic advice to draw attention to problems and agendas.
third, we have legal clarification, which is my preferred response wherein we have slavery and it is untried -- enshrined, and instead of defining slavery rhetorically, we should appreciate that over time we now have a number of complementary and auxiliary devices and strategies which enable us to speak about and come back and i guess things that look a bit like slavery that we may not want to define as such. i want to take you coast -- ticket through those three approaches briefly. in keeping with the type of work i do, i want to think briefly about how the historiography surrounding slavery and abolition could be used to better inform and shape how we might think about practices today. strategic minimization -- up here, i have included a quote
from the league of nations, which was unofficial report produced in the 1930's in order to describe an excuse and minimize certain practices that were associated with residual slave systems in colonial africa, india, and parts of asia. i put it up. i will not read it. it is emblematic of a broader trend which elevates slavery to this distant and a separate rarefy category. it sits at the apex of a hierarchy, and anything that falls short of an extremist -- an extremely demanding rigorous standard, it becomes something other than slavery. in some of variants, we have a mild slavery, vestiges of slavery, slave-like practices. ever since slavery was abolished, and even prior to
that, there has been this tendency to minimize and excuse certain problems that lot like slavery, but for various political reasons, people have tried to place in other categories. on the one hand, we had this minimalist conception of slavery, and it is not an objective -- it is tied up in agendas or orientations or assumptions that people make about what would be useful for slavery to look like. on the other hand, we have a rhetorical inflation -- rhetorical inflation is a tendency to equate or associated a very wide range of practices and problem areas as forms of slavery. example i have used is a tendency in the united nations where by the last 40 years since the late 1970's, the
united nations has been talking about the slavery-like populations of apartheid and colonialism. here we have an exercise in rhetoric. the collective suffering, dominion, and exploitation of our broader population with forms of individualized suffering and dominion. there is a tendency to expand the boundaries of slavery, partly as an exercise in drawing attention to various problem areas, and partly as a sense that the abolition of slavery does not mean very much. if we legally abolished something, and the things we thought we were combating, the things we were hoping to eradicate aptly persist under various other guises -- actually persist under various other guises. sometimes this works very well,
sometimes it works very poorly. a problem that arises is that it has a tent -- is that it has a tap -- is that it has a tendency to model coherence. we have to go complications. -- to muddle coherence. we have to go complications. slavery becomes a form of political tyranny. slavery becomes all that is bad and problematic in this role. -- this world. we had a problem of knowing where slavery ends. as a consequence of this inflation, we are also promoting and encouraging skeptic -- skepticism surrounding whether anything in this world can it really be described in terms of slavery. rhetorical inflation creates conditions of skepticism.
i want to suggest that neither of these options are particularly satisfying, but both of them have important logic, and both of these logics are not simply or exclusively strategic moves. they are rooted in how people approached the issue. the alternative that i want to talk about is this idea of legal codification. here i am looking at the 1926 sleeper convention, which we already heard about. -- slavery convention, which we already heard about. i think this definition is important because it goes beyond political rhetoric and pro -- and personal opinion. we have a definition of slavery that governments have endorsed and supported, and as a consequence, it creates a
benchmark against which behavior can be legitimately addressed. i want to briefly unpack this. it is important to know that when this was negotiated, there was an impulse to expand the definition of slavery very broadly, but that in polls was constricted down to a relatively narrow -- but that impulse was constructed to an air -- to a relatively narrow benchmark. this applies to not simply a legal slavery, but it also applies to defacto lived conditions. it establishes a benchmark that is relatively rigorous in its application. i would point your attention to a series of guidelines. a number of people in this room helped to create them. they emerge out of a research network that brought together
historians and activists and people working on contemporary issues with a view to clarify what slavery looks like for the purposes of prosecution in interim -- in international criminal tribunal is. it is designed as a guideline for prosecutors. the key element is that powers attaching it to right of ownership are not simply rights of ownership that are recognized in law, but are the functional equivalent to legal ownership in the event that such illegal status was even legal recognition. the example that is used here is that you cannot own a cocaine, because it is illegal, but in the event that you find it in your possession, you exercise a power attached to the right of ownership over it. on what basis do contemporary
practical institutions sufficiently resemble the lived experience of the slave, and in historical terms, that we can legitimately classified them as slavery? we have a legal definition. i want to pretend it is perfect. it is an important starting point that we should use to begin a discussion about what slavery looks like. in addition, and i am going to do this very quickly, we also have overtime a broader series of benchmarks and obligations, which means in the present day, we have limited a reason to extend the slavery rhetorically by the fact that all the things that we might otherwise want to describe as slavery are codified and enshrined in various legal instruments.
we have forced labor, we had debt bondage, we have a trafficking, and so on. in my previous work, i have suggested that this process of codification arises out of a series of reflections on the limitations of what has been previously accomplished. in the event that illegal abolition of slavery brought about certain consequential yet qualified improvements in how slaves lived, but in eight of itself, it was not sufficient. in my understanding of this, there is a bit of a dialectic at work where by reflections on the limitations of what was previously transpired or accomplished in turn provokes further mobilizations are around related and supplementary issues. we now have a situation where -- this applies in domestic law -- it is easier to talk about
international law because its scope is much broader. we now have a series of definitions. we now have a series of standards and criteria and obligations that we can use to talk about what slavery looks like, and more importantly, we have a conversation which is not confined or exclusive to slavery as a separate and distinct and exceptional category. problems continue to rise in that while we had slavery alongside other practices, the point of intersection between slavery and these related issues still nonetheless poses a practical conceptual and legal problems. in order to think further -- in order to think further about this, i want to return to the history of slavery, and i want to think through some of the ways in which we conceptualize and draw upon these implicitly or explicitly series of
historical benchmarks and apply them to contemporary practices. whenever we tried to define or conceptualize slavery-related practices, we are invariably falling back on the various forms of classification by way of historical comparison. here there is a hierarchy -- hierarchical set of assumptions at work. slavery sits at the apex of a series of a hierarchy whereby it constitutes a fundamental dominion explication. things that are placed on the hierarchy are elevated by that association or are tempted to be. or they are minimized by the difference, which is the approach in terms of strategic minimization. here once again efforts to
describe and delineate slavery are never objective. there has been a strong tendency to minimize an excuse historical implicitly and involvement in enslavement throughout the world. and to insist as early as possible that things that look like slavery belong in some other category. in thinking about this, the iconography of the transatlantic slavery loans extremely large. i would suggest that while transatlantic slavery was a complicated, multifaceted, extremely diverse, and longstanding institution, in terms of how it feeds into debates of classification and conceptualization, it tends to be very simplified and stylized, whereby it slavery becomes ownership, slavery becomes extreme dominion and
exploitation, and there is a series of ancillary associations with slavery being defined by rights, which is not always the case, slavery being defined in terms of economic exploitation, which is not always the case, slavery being defined as a separate and discrete category, which is not always the case elsewhere, and so on. in thinking about how we define and classify slavery, i want to suggest that this process of implicit comparison invariably ends up in an assessment of the relative similarity or severity on the basis of this inherited image we have of transatlantic slavery. here slavery functions as a separate and stratified category. it is separate and distinct from other forms of human bondage. it is ratified in that it stands apart from and above
other problems and practices. this is an approach that has a popular purchase or conscious, but it is also something that scholars feel defined and developed in various ways. the obvious example is "slavery and social that." -- "slavery and social debt." on the other hand, we have alternative historiography and an alternative set of starting points that move beyond transatlantic slavery and instead try to complicate the historical story we tell by thinking about what slavery looked like in other parts of the world.
this debate is by no means settled or definitive, but on one side, we have this idea that however much we may want to separate or extract out slavery, when you actually look at historical practices, legal practices, you instead find complicated forms of intersection and overlap with other forms of human bondage. in one version of this argument, the stronger version of this argument goes that the slavery that europeans abolished as a function of colonialism was actually a category of their own invention, which betrayed their own ignorance of how other practices in other parts of the world actually operated. i want to suggest here that a blended together approach, an approach that says that things can be both slavery and something else, is actually consistent with how slavery is
operated as a long-term historic category. the definition and dilemmas and complications we have arising out of issues today actually stem out of a broad historic genealogy rather than being distinctive and fundamental and different to our moment in time. i want to suggest that blending together is a recurring dilemma. i want to suggest that it has a particular purchase in how we think about illegal he abolition of slavery. there's a tendency that i think has done a great disservice to how we think about slavery to treat the abolition of slavery as a historical and point, a marker in a conversation that marks the end of the story in which the pushed that follows -- the postscript that follows is only three pages long. in keeping with the broader tenor of my work, i kind of a
direct your attention to a series of patents associated with legal abolition that occur outside the americas. when we limit our historical horizons to transatlantic slavery, we have a narrative that finishes in 1888 in brazil when we limit our historical horizons to transatlantic slavery, we have a narrative that finishes in 1888 in brazil and then picks up with globalization and -- in the early 1990's. i would instead suggest that you understand little abolition as a broader global process, you are instead in countering a number of publications. the little abolition of slavery in most parts of the world are bound up and deeply implicated in processes of colonization and imperialism that we have a hard time connecting and associating with an abolition of something that is universally regarded as one of humanity's great accomplishments. we have a complicated story once we start talking about the
abolition in other parts of the world. more important for my purposes today, we also have a story that is bound up in complicated forms of transformation and reconfiguration whereby legal abolition rarely marks the definitive end to the story. i cannot do this argument justice, but -- but what i would say is that wherever slavery was abolished, you have invariably a situation where the formal change in institutional status only weakly corresponded with changes in lived experience. in all of these cases, and we have obviously variations between countries and time periods, we have slave-like relationships persisting decades after slavery was formally abolished.
we have a widespread recourse of the debt on it to retain the productive capacity that slaves formally -- formerly offered to society. we have a widespread movement to reconfigure slave relationships with married relationships. county by relationships -- concubine relationships to create different categories. we have a situation where the intersection between slavery as an institution and other forms of institutional arrangement is a fundamental to the limitations of what wasn't done historically. in thinking -- in thinking about this, i suggest that the intersection of human slavery and bondage was first a long- term strategy, and second, this idea of slavery, this idea of
something that is separate and stratified actually does not hold up historically in a number of different cases. consequently, whatever apprehensions we may have about extending the boundaries of slavery beyond its institutional roots, beyond its formal status, while there is a trade-off to whatever position you take, i would still suggest that in thinking about slavery today in the absence of legal recognition, we need to take into account the institutional arrangements, but institutional arrangements should not be determinative in it of
themselves. in thinking about the fact of slavery, thinking about slavery as a set of lived experiences, it actually invites us to view this intersection between slavery and other categories as fundamental to a series of interruptions and responses to legal abolition. the second point i would want to say is that however much we may be tempted for political reasons, for legal reasons to describe other categories has slavery in their entirety -- all forms of forced labor become slippery, all forms of debt bondage become slavery, all forms of various problems become slavery, that move is an overstatement about how far we might want to think about slavery. legal codification and the existence of all the resources and obligations means that we can talk about slavery and we can treat a subset of other cases and practices as slavery and deep -- and be confident in making that assessment. we should nonetheless not apply
slavery indiscriminately and broadly as such that it swallows categories in their entirety. here i would suggest that a blended together approach requires a frame of reference or analysis that takes slavery as an isolated category and relate it consistently, automatically, as a matter of a thought, to a variety of other problems and practices. modern anti-slavery did not begin and end with slavery. i appreciate this is a conclusion that many of you come to already. it extends more broadly into a larger portfolio. here i would suggest that there are certain dangers associated with setting slavery up as a separate and stratify category, because as setting slavery up as a thing that sets up at the apex of the pyramid, there has
been a recurring tendency to implicitly normalize or legitimize everything that falls short of that standard. in talking about slavery as a separate and distinct, we can indirectly and up saying that there are a whole bunch of other problems in the world that fall short of the standard and therefore are less significant. a broader frame of reference codifies slavery as a thing that sets apart. it places slavery alongside human bondage, alongside poverty, inequality, structural injustice, and so on. that last point is incredibly suggested. i am very short on time. thank you. [applause] >> thank you. i know it isn't really debatable, and we will, but i would add an exclamation to your slow death serious. those of us that study memory,
that is our subject. you cannot even mention the surf bum -- serfdom and how quickly that cannot go away. we'll have to go responses and analyses of his talk. two very distinguished scholars, jenny martinez -- just for time's sake -- she is a professor of law and a professor at the stanford law school. she is an expert on all sorts of issues, especially international courts and tribunals, the whole field of international human rights, security, constitutional law, and the law of war. research focuses on the role of courts and tribunals in advancing human rights. she has worked a great deal on what she describes as the all but forgotten 19th century international tribunals which were involved in the suppression of the atlantic slave trade. she is here in great part because she got the attention of many bus with her current book published in early 2012, entitled "the slave trade and the origins of international human rights law." she has written numerous
articles on this subject. jenny will go first. our second responded is a police shelley, who is a university professor and director of the terrorism and transnational crime and corruption center at the school of public policy at george mason university. she is the author of -- it is amazing how recent all these books are -- anyway, her recent book entitled "human trafficking:a global perspective ago it was published in 2010. she is also co editor of the three other works, one entitled "human security, transnational crime, and human trafficking,"
another is entitled "human traffic and transnational crime." she is a scholar. these will be our two distinguished respondents. jenny, would you like to go first? [applause] >> will stay here. -- i will stay here. thank you, david, for inviting me here. joel's remarks were so sensible and thoughtful. it is hard to disagree with
them. i will not even try to do that. i think i very much agree with his suggestion that as compared to the alternative of the restrictive approach in which we try to define slavery in the most narrow of ways or the rhetorical inflation where paying taxes is a form of slavery, these are unattractive alternatives, and instead, taking a more nuanced approach
where we consider slavery in the context of other practices that are related to it without creating the hierarchy but instead focused on the interrelated ness and indebtedness of all the different practices with one another is one that i think the current international legal regime does do. in the way that legal instruments like certain protocols or the definition of slavery in the statute of the international criminal court and the elements of crime, as well as the inclusion of other things in the international criminal court statute, including explicitly sexual slavery or enforced prostitution, and separately, the elimination of crimes against humanity. that is a trend in the way that international law and international -- are looking at the issue. i cannot disagree -- international regimes are looking at the issue. i cannot disagree. instead, what i will do is talk
about why it seems so important for us to define a slavery. i will suggest that in asking what is the definition of slavery we should also be asking ourselves, for what purpose are we trying to define it? why are we so concerned with this definition? to what degree are we to be sensitive to the context? lawyers love nothing more than a debate about definitions. we can argue for days. i would suggest that legal proceedings are not the only realm in which we're talking about. and talk about some of the reasons or context and -- in which we might try to define the term of slavery, and why we might be more or less concerned about the procedural contours of the definition. one reason why we might want to define the term is for academic purposes. for those of us who are researchers, depending on our
particular fields, whether it be history, social scientists, sociology, economists, philosophers, lawyers, in terms of academic study, it is quite important to define the terms of what you are examining in order that others may accurately evaluate your result. one of the things that one might say is that if one is trying to measure this morning's keynote, the quality of slavery, it is quite important to define what you're talking about so that other researchers can examine your measures, can the second -- double check the quantities you determined, and in that regard, i think the statistics we saw this morning are quite helpful. there were broken down by category so that one could unpack. if one this agrees, and says, i think that the boundaries of the consent or coercion are different, and i do not count short-term, seasonal debt bondage, then you know how that has been counted, and you can see but other categories are
there. similarly, for people who might be looking at the causes of contemporary practices, unpacking those probably requires a minor degree of granular be. forced marriages are probably quite a difference -- quite different in terms of their social and economic origins that child labor, a building, weaving rugs, or the use of forced labor during armed conflict. attentiveness to the context may be quite important for our academic study. focusing simply on this overarching question of, is it slavery, or is it not, they obscure some of the differences that may be important to academic study. at the same time, i think that
there is room in academic study to consider some of the important social questions and the philosophical contest -- contacts when looking at consent and economic choice from the perspective of humanities and what does it mean for somebody to consent to an arrangement. for academic study, while it is interesting to talk about the definition of slavery, it may be more useful for us to drill down to consider some nuances. a second context in which the definition might be potentially important would-be legal proceedings. as a lawyer, i would say that having a definition is more important in that realm. when you go into the courtroom and you try to convince the defendants of a particular offense, or you need a definition, you can expect that
whoever is on the other side of a legal proceeding will push back at any definition, will search for any loopholes that might come up with. the do you think that our current legal documents, whether it be treaties from the 1926 treaty, to the 1956 additional provisions that the international criminal court provided, there are contours' to the international definitions of enslavement, supplemented by the very helpful blog gl guidelines -- bellagio guidelines. i think it is important not to place slavery as a pinnacle of a hierarchy but instead to consider it in the context of other things. first, because the bad guys always find a loophole. however closely you try to
define one particular concept, if you do that, you're leaving open the other categories for bad behavior. even more than that, because it may reduce the legal tools that we have available to us to address the problem. for example, in terms of looking at legal remedies for the contemporary issue of slavery-related practices, we might look at international proceedings, domestic proceedings, criminal proceedings, civil proceedings, but we also can look at other areas of law that provide useful tools. in talking about -- we might have a specific prohibitions on practices more questionable, like a dead bondage or other things -- and might look at
other areas of law that are "-- that are closely related, like labor rights, which is the flip side of the practice of enslavement or forced labor, workers have rights too particular wages or particular working conditions, or the payment at regular intervals, and in many ways, one of the remedies or potential remedies for labor problems today is looking at the affirmative provision of laborites of the two workers, whether individually or through protective laws or through some sort of collective process, which is why organizations like the international labor organization are so attuned to these issues.
other human rights issues broadly speaking within the framework of human rights law -- anti-discrimination, one of the big things we heard about in this morning's program is the degree to which these practices are tied to discrimination against women and ethnic groups. attention to that component of law is also important, as well as other civil and political rights. the ability of individuals to exercise rights and political -- rights of political
participation, boating, speech, access to education on an equal basis, are important to getting at some of the underlying problems that create the conditions that we heard in this morning's program. the legal realm is another area in which it is important in some context, you are bringing a case, whether in a domestic court or an international forum, related to cyber, you want to know -- you want to know the definition, but i think focusing on it too much distracts us from other potential things. finally, another area in which a lot of the debate revulsed is in the area of act as a critic in activism -- is in the area of activism.
whether rhetorically exaggerating the definition of slavery or minimizing the definition of slavery -- in many ways, it is quite right amiss -- in many ways, it is quite reminiscent of the term genocide. just as the trans-atlantic slave trade farm the image of slavery, the holocaust is the image that comes to the average person's mind in relationship to the word genocide. darfur, sudan, the question arises, is it genocide? does it meet the terms of genocide as a legal matter? do we lose something by not causing -- by not calling it genocide? it has been argued by some at the powers that the word was avoided by longtime by powerful countries because they did not want to incur an obligation to intervene in cases of genocide. there has also been the argument that the use of the word genocide can cover too many situations. there is some interesting writing on this by judges, seeing that there is not a hierarchy of crime. genocide, while it might be the crime of crimes, in fact, crimes against humanity, things like that can be as bad or worse. it is illegal category -- a
legal category. having that said, i think it is inevitable that people are drawn to and concern about this debate. i think there is room for academic research. i think we have relatively little empirical knowledge about how important these words actually are. do people react differently when you talk about slavery versus trafficking? i am sure that there are pulling groups -- polling groups -- who is pulling -- polling this? how can this message to be better conveyed? clearly there is rhetorical important in defining slavery. there is room for research on the question of how important it is to determine, are there other ways -- how does the kremlin of this defect -- the framing of this affect others? whether it be potential victims who may be in danger of being trafficked, and may not have
other alternatives, but may be informed, to a least some degree, about how to choose among the options given to them with fuller awareness of the consequences that may result. encouraging community norms to change. foster and community organizations, providing relief to victims in ways out of situations. in all those contexts, it may be different in different parts of the world. i think we need greater awareness of the ways in which we use language, how that might resonate in different situations. i think the blended together approach of seeing slavery as connected to a variety of other practices, not in a hierarchy, but in a much more fluid way is quite sensible, and in applying whatever legal definitions we have, we ought to be sensitive to the context in which we are
operating. with that, i will turn it over to you. [applause] >> thank you. it is a delight to be here with such a great audience. i come at this with a little bit of a difference -- different perspective because i am trained on issues of crime. as was mentioned just now, we are now defining human trafficking under the protocol against transnational crime. there was constant -- there was controversy about whether this law against him and trafficking should be placed, but now that it is there, there are things that defining it in this way make an important difference.
i want talk to you today about defining the phenomenon of slavery and how it is different as analysts it phenomenon and what that means in studying, defining, and reacting to it. let me start off with a case, because i believe that one needs to look at cases, and not just look at working with ngo's. in the netherlands, they define -- they have legalized
prostitution. illegalized holding brothels. with that -- they legalized holding brothels. there are problems with this that go to the very definition of slave labor. the prosecutors in the mother -- in the netherlands found a large network of human traffickers. if you estimate the cost of what they may have profited from the 20 years before they broke this ring, weird talk -- we're talking close to about $0.5 billion. that is on the level of what you find in the drug trade. as they found the women and wanted them to testify and free them from this slavery, in one case, the traffickers went to the home of one of the people who had been identified as a possible witness and burned down her home, her family's home in the czech republic.
this is a very different phenomenon from someone continuing on from one form of slavery to another. something that goes on from a world that keeps people in bondage and slavery in traffic. today's discussion has been on human trafficking in looking at it as a generous phenomenon as if we're talking about trade for marriages, for organs. because it is an illicit business it intersects with many other forms of businesses in the world today.
declassified and released soon. they were talking to me about a new element of human trafficking that i'd never heard about. i have been doing some research. one of the cases that came across in florida they have human tracking victims who were then being treated by immediate mobile medical clinics to force abortion, etc. they also found the drugs because they were trying to reduce the cost. there is an intersection of value economize and other forms of exploitation, long with providing sexual services.
when slavery was a legal phenomenon it existed as a transnational phenomenon. we do not need to look at it as a form to which a group. it makes it difficult for us to think about how we become a bald -- involved in abolition. we have been talking about this it is a phenomenon because it has been outlawed. this is not exactly true. there are many state that they talked about.
it is not just correction that allows this to cooperate. there are many head the state who are profiting themselves to help perpetuate this human trafficking. they continue to be the trafficker themselves. there is a very interesting ngo. they talk about the complicity of the top leadership. it may be illegal.
it is mara as if they have surrendered this phenomenon. how do we define where we have this leadership. there is a whole leadership. it is very involved. i have some examples in my book. people come and give you even more examples. i also mention the work on this business if human trafficking. i came across to try and define human trafficking in terms of five business models to help you understand that like the
traditional slave trade human trafficking today is an incredibly diverse phenomenon. it is not the same. human traffickers operate very differently in different parts of the world. there is an enormous legacy between human trafficking today. it is a result of the business of historical and trade traditions. there are many other examples of looking at human traffic and -- trafficking. it is now much more a labor trafficking.
the word slave comes from slav. they always use it as natural resources. it is a people driven export commodity that operates very differently from a human smuggling model that operate as an integrated business like chinese trade from start to finish. there's not one business model for this. different forms have different forms of violence that are
employed by all these different traditions. one needs to look and understand this. the deeply in find other models. going to thailand. we talked about the fishing industry. there's a whole model my colleagues there developed. they find it is operating extremely differently. we have other forms of slavery. there is not one way that it operates. we have to get away from our -- definitions. we're looking at a phenomenon
that is a legal but harder to study. is often the analyses of talking to law enforcement to are working at this and have access to being able to do network analysis allows us to do this phenomenon. there are those from the corporate world who have been able to understand how this is working. we have many misconceptions. the turkish police officer said
that there is so messed reduce so much of this literature that is wrong. i found a woman tied to this change, not some random business. we have to understand how it operates with sophisticated analyses of how this was functioning globally. they understand the diversity and intersection will never begin to get it. if the dutch cannot manage to
save victims they have rescued from the clutches of traffickers because they fear the intimidation against their family we do not have the type of the emancipation proclamation we had in the united states. we need a different conception of how this phenomenon operates. >> thank you so much. we really began to understand the slave trade when we began to
realize the business models of african kings and their european partners were developing. did they have business models. let's open the floor. >> this is as good of a session that i have been in. i have so many different thoughts in my mind. i will try it with one. there's a conference here where he put together a book which is now the problem of slavery as history. i was one of the editors. they really changes the whole
conversation. what it proposes is that we drop the world slavery -- the word slavery. when you make it adjourned the moment are always suspect. are readre saying iterations of new forms of labor substitutions that are always going to do exactly that. this seems to me that when you have done this to think about this is an ongoing process. it does seem to be this is the first thing that happens. i want to may explain it to americans. when you begin to start thinking
of the american experience as an experience the slaving rather than slavery, but teach a course called sleeving since 1865. there are regimes they go right into this complex. i can use the same thing by thinking about labor's substitutions. you begin to think for one form of slavery leads to another that temporary people living in their own memories that now seem to make slavery invisible. you can reanimate the narrative of your own country. that is why i am so excited. we get to questions of criminal networks and legality, you are
thinking about sleeving rather than slavery. the reason we get into the business is with the understanding that this is a battle that goes on forever. if you want to lead an intelligent life we were going to recognize this is a set of problems that you have already reached for within the compass of your own power. it speaks to this whole session in a variety of different ways. i would recommend. >> one little comment. it is interesting that the statute uses this as a crime against humanity.
>> the second thing is useful because a direct your attention to the role of the state in facilitating certain strategies. service has been done in a lot of ways if framing the state is a savior to the illicit act is. the starkly the state has the been the primary cause of, not through neglect or admission, but historic way of everything subsequent. it is tied to the best involvement. fundamental
human tracking today, it seems like its is more with white indentured servitude. people were coming to the americas, at jamestown will be placed the milk and honey. they were still being deceived. they serve their seven or 10 years. some did die from a beating from their masters. they cannot leave that contract. the negotiant is more than indentured servitude.
are you concerned about this whole topic of deciding slavery, he gets to decide what slavery is and is not? someone has to decide if alcohol is legal. who gets to decide what is slavery? there will be a consequence for people who are involved because there will be collateral damage. she was 19. they were trying to turn that you human trafficking.
said let's go after this black man who's gaining white women. let's say he is participating in the white slave trade. when i talk about collateral damage -- when politics is involved, is there this danger of collateral damage that you created even though there is good intention? >> througthe question of who des what is and is not in the number of categories is something back constantly needs to be asked. egaluch as we may have a lab definition of slavery we should not help but the knowledge that it emerges out of a very
particular moment in colonial history. the people responsible for investing in a ridiculous image of how the world should be organized. there were troubled by the fact that they did not want complications. the definition of slavery that we have emerges out of the particular legal tradition. similarly when it comes to trafficking, you have the relationships where it is tied to a political economy. it is tied to a particular understanding of how this problem emerges that is being disseminated as a consequence,
but the things that were previously understood have been incorporated and redefined. it follows through the lenses we adopt. it is no coincidence, there are too historical genealogies. one emerges out of white slavery in debates of prostitution. the second images out of labor practices. over the last 15 years, they have converge. they converged on terms that did trafficking as an organizing device appeared as a consequence ies that are used to
merge up of an understanding. >> one of the problems we see in defining slavery today is the enormous economic disparities that exist in the world today, especially in places on the cleavage points of these economic disparities. for example there was a case in germany in which they found a human trafficker. he was been slaving women. the system back to russia to have him prosecuted. many would not testify against him. they said they earned more there. under german law they were enslaved. they were working 70 hours a week.
they did not consider themselves as being enslaved. book that recently came back about the same situation among women who others consider traffic in asia. the women did not consider themselves this way. we can look at this between latin america and the united states as well. we see gross violations of labor law. so drastict marceaare sometimes the view is not sure that this is slavery. there is no absolute definition of it. >> on the last part, it is
undeniable that the law is already tied up with this powerful society. these are the people that always mean the law that is inevitable. how do we balance the competing potential abuses tax as a descriptive matter the groups to see under use of law for their benefit are women and minorities. in general the people who do not play a role in creation are
women and groups that exist at the underprivileged areas of society. what are the underlying conditions? i talked to rights to equality. why are the groups left outside the process that makes the loss? he or the prosecutors tax that makes a difference. >> judging from what is said about the inflation to you think it will lead you to deal with this. ?
>> expand a little bit. >> do you subscribe to the notion to deal with the transatlantic slave trade? it has complicated issues. >> i am not a hundred percent sure what you mean by inability. i understand you to mean that the scope and emissions are not -- dimensions are properly identified. that is an extremely difficult issue. in thinking about slavery there is the case that you broaden the conversation intrados emerge in terms of activism that can be devoted. i think there has been a strong teen